A DISCUSSION on AFK gathering resources.

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Dan

Dan

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Hmm and he buys them at cut throat rate? However sells for the set going price?
 

Omalley

Expert II
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Hmm and he buys them at cut throat rate? However sells for the set going price?
I would have to say no on "Cut Throat rate" if that were the case, no one would sell to them.. and as for set rate for selling, i suppose.
 

Majere

Newbie III
Community Supporter
1. Who would be downright against it, no matter what, and why?
It will not be neccesary to gather resources manually, so there will be no such activity as resource gathering, everything will be gathered by bots.
I gather those manually when I have the right mood, enough to train crafters, but little remains for sale. I don't like the idea of AFK gathering.

2. What if we said it was legal, but ONLY in Felucca? (Risk vs reward)(Could be PKed)
It will change nothing, tested on other shards (mb with huge online, but I doubt it). And there is no risk, bot labour/time worth nothing

3. What if NPCs also sold them, for a premium, as a gold sink / economy stabilizer?
Mb but for a very high prices, would anyone buy them then? Or if prices are acceptable will anyone even consider gatherers professions?

4. What if we made it legal but then removed resources from various systems that could be abused by the influx of resources (IE: They would no longer be worth clean up points, Community Collections? City donations?) (What systems to keep them in, which ones to remove?)
Too much sacrifice for AFK gathering to my mind...

5. Am I forgetting where else resources are used BESIDES crafting?
Who knows, UO is huge :) Even if nothing is forgotten It could be implemented in future.

But after all it could be time consuming to always control those afk gatherers... Might I ask are there more than one recidivist abusing afk gathering currently?
 

Shakyj

Novice III
Community Supporter
Just to throw a twist on the AFK gathering side of things. I always AFK gather in a sense. Just because I have it on another screen to reply when a GM pops in doesn't mean I'm playing the game. I'm for all intents and purposes AFK for that player. If I was at work and was playing a game on the screen I was focusing on and had work on another screen and looked back when someone was there would they consider me working?
 

Moti

Neophyte III
I was interested in the idea with the miners' guild in Minok and the purchase of raw materials, namely ores. But what about the lumberjacks, if I am not mistaken, there is no such guild. And what about the collection of granite, sand? And I want to clarify, point Honesty that gives discounts, they fall from use and is very dreary in implementation.
 

DaBeanCounter

Journeyman
Community Supporter
I would say the buy and sell price would be the same, except the buy price would be less by some "commission" from the vendor. That's basically what agents and many professionals do today when people dont want to.... defend themselves in court, file taxes, sell/buy houses, build property, etc.
Anyone COULD sell ingots THEMSELVES for a higher price, but then they have to setup, worry about stockouts, etc. A broker NPC that can be used by everyone wouldn't have this problem. This, to me, solves the resource issue without touching afk gathering (btw, i think it should be illegal). I watch my screen for Dan like a hawk and YOU (points finger) should too! :)
 

DaBeanCounter

Journeyman
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I was interested in the idea with the miners' guild in Minok and the purchase of raw materials, namely ores. But what about the lumberjacks, if I am not mistaken, there is no such guild. And what about the collection of granite, sand? And I want to clarify, point Honesty that gives discounts, they fall from use and is very dreary in implementation.
If the ingots vendor works, i say EVERY commodity could be implemented as you suggest. Guilds and Honesty become useful again
 

Zog

Newbie II
Community Supporter
I know I dont have a ton of time invested in this shard. But i'm not a big fan of allowing anything to be collected afk. I mean at least put in the minimal effort of hanging around your computer, while you don't play the game and macro your wealth. It would suck to see a honest merchant start on the shard only to find out he is competing with 24/7 script bots.
 

doit4science

Neophyte
Community Supporter
1. Who would be downright against it, no matter what, and why?
I would be in favor of making AFK gathering legal. I would argue that this would benefit almost everyone, especially newer players. Having an abundance of resources would allow more BODs to be filled, which allows for another BOD to be received in addition to getting the rewards. This gives a new player the potential to collect as many BODs as desired in his/her first few days (or an older player just getting into crafting). The rewards would make it easier to make suits (powder of fortune, runic reforging) and also open up a new market that is almost non-existent at the moment. I believe that the capitalist economy of UO would take care of pricing of the raw resources by itself. Although I feel as though this change would benefit most players, I could understand if older players who have been crafting/collecting BODs for a long time did not see it that way.

2. What if we said it was legal, but ONLY in Felucca? (Risk vs reward)(Could be PKed)
I could go either way on this one. The double resource bonus of fel already provides an incentive for players to gather there. I feel that making it a requirement would mostly just enable griefing because other than killing your competition I don't see any motivation to hunt a miner except to mess with them.

3. What if NPCs also sold them, for a premium, as a gold sink / economy stabilizer?
I personally don't think this would be necessary, and it would be difficult to set the pricing since the market is dynamic. I think the supply and demand should determine the pricing, not an NPC.

4. What if we made it legal but then removed resources from various systems that could be abused by the influx of resources (IE: They would no longer be worth clean up points, Community Collections? City donations?) (What systems to keep them in, which ones to remove?)
Yes, resources would need to be removed from these systems if AFK gathering were legal. This is another case where I would understand complaints from players who utilize resources for the points, i.e. killing the elementals at the rat cave.

5. Am I forgetting where else resources are used BESIDES crafting?
Can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

Just an idea, you could host a "town hall" voice discussion about this topic in discord since this issue is somewhat complex and debatable.
 

Jester

Novice II
Community Supporter
I would also agree that this is a bad idea, my time has been limited as of late, but if I returned to the game and this was the new rule, I probably would not play, it takes from the competitive nature of the game, some people like to mine/sell resources and if it was legal to afk gather, there would no longer be a market (I know there is not alot right now but hopefully will be in the future)

The afk gathering in fel sounds gimmicky to me, fel is massive and a miner could be afk some strange places and I would not want to have to play find serv everytime I thought I might get some ingots, I'd just set my miner up, not to mention if you tried hard enough could probably get it to recall out before a non-stealther could kill the miner and even with pking your bound to get more materials then stolen.

It is a slippery slope, soon after a change like this, there would be a discussion on afk gold gathering, which is still a resource and would potentially end up with a server of gold/resource bots

I prefer the rules exactly how they are, no afk gathering, it is simple and precise, no exceptions and with clear punishments.

As for the vendors, I feel since iron is available and you can already use it to gain smithing and any collections you need, that the colored ingots should require time investment. I understand the need for gold sinks, but feel resources should not be one.
 

Dreezy

Newbie II
Community Supporter
I would like to throw a curve ball on this topic since I am a very heavy scripter myself...

If we take a step back before we discuss resource gathering... what's the reason why we gather resources in the first place?
  1. We want to fill BODS because of the rewards given by them, currently the BOD system in my opinion is really F*cked up, especially in low population shards... The way EA / Broadsword implemented the current BOD system was because of the amount of people playing the game. The whole idea was based on a trading system where players could get their missing BODS to fill Larges from one another, when the shards started to lose players...they implemented the bribe option as a way of pumping up the system... Not to mention that the chances of getting a good Large bod are very little and the amount of Bods you need to cycle through is huge.... Therefore one of the reasons why we needed to script resource gathering in the first place, simply because of the volume required for a chance to obtain a good runic.
  2. We also have the library collections, which require a lot of resources to obtain "high end" items, which take again a lot of repetitive processes to obtain the reward offered... again it brings us back to script the collections for a chance to obtain these rewards.
  3. We also have the rewards for doing quests in HW, which the volume required to obtain a good reward is ridiculous in my opinion, I have burned several times 60k of wood doing quests just to obtain a few different runics... (depending on the RNG god) again, who would genuinely would come and not script the system if they can, as it is a true PITA to repeat again and again the same quest for the small % of a reward?
  4. Based on the previous points, there are people who obviously think it's more profitable to farm and sell the resources for those who do all of the above, this gold can be used to buy anything in the game as the inflation is not absolutely ridiculous yet.
Let me ask you all a question now... Is the real problem resource gathering? or the systems around resource gathering?

Most of the systems surrounding resource gathering are boring and not properly optimised, they involve repetitive actions that have absolutely no value for the chance of a "high end" reward, and let me also point something out... If we use Runics, we need to farm several hours for a chance to roll the dice again with the RNG god to obtain the item we are looking for with the mods we want... there is no absolute way of telling if you are getting closer or not to obtain the item you want as it is based in pure luck.
Exactly the same thing for the quests of Heartwood, pure luck.

The library systems I think they are "okish" in the sense that you know exactly the amount of ingots or items you need to obtain certain reward.

So, should we allow afk farming? In my opinion, we shouldn't and I can farm the hell out of this game with the scripts I have ( this is not a bragging attempt, simply I don't think I should have an advantage over someone who wants to play the game "fairly")

What we should do is to find different ways of improving the current systems so they are accessible to everyone, those who farm, those who don't and so on...

Good attempts to fix these are:
- The permanent implementation of Blackthorne Dungeon.
- The current events like KoTL, Doom in which your time spent gives you either tokens to get a bigger reward or more chances to get a reward.

I would still like to see a better way of obtaining runics, we need to remember the system works around random properties in items... this game looks more and more like DIablo 3 than anything else, and to a certain extent, it's the way we love UO because of its randomness but there has to be a limit to it to make it accessible to everyone.

This is still a MMORPG I am not trying to say things should be easy so those who don't script have a chance to get big items as well, as those who script could exploit the system and get many many overpowered items in the game, but we should find some balance...

I think the previous expansions introduced in the past like ML, Samurai Empire, they could do with a massive boost or revamp. I am talking about improving the encounters, currently almost any player with an equipped tamer / sampire can solo any of those... We should try to improve the experience and make those dungeons great again, increase the difficulty... so we can update the loot tables for those, this way people can choose from many options in the game what they want to fight.

I have several ideas on runics but I think this post is long enough and would like to hear the opinions from other people before I carry on... If you've read till this point, thank you very much.
 

Noah

Apprentice
Community Supporter
This hasnt been an issue for years. Now that Players from the EU, Italy, and Russia are here bitching and whining about it, there "needs to be a discussion"? Fuck them. It shouldn't happen. End of question. It's a rule and IMO shouldn't be changed. No AFK gathering!
 
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Dan

Dan

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I would like to throw a curve ball on this topic since I am a very heavy scripter myself...

If we take a step back before we discuss resource gathering... what's the reason why we gather resources in the first place?
  1. We want to fill BODS because of the rewards given by them, currently the BOD system in my opinion is really F*cked up, especially in low population shards... The way EA / Broadsword implemented the current BOD system was because of the amount of people playing the game. The whole idea was based on a trading system where players could get their missing BODS to fill Larges from one another, when the shards started to lose players...they implemented the bribe option as a way of pumping up the system... Not to mention that the chances of getting a good Large bod are very little and the amount of Bods you need to cycle through is huge.... Therefore one of the reasons why we needed to script resource gathering in the first place, simply because of the volume required for a chance to obtain a good runic.
  2. We also have the library collections, which require a lot of resources to obtain "high end" items, which take again a lot of repetitive processes to obtain the reward offered... again it brings us back to script the collections for a chance to obtain these rewards.
  3. We also have the rewards for doing quests in HW, which the volume required to obtain a good reward is ridiculous in my opinion, I have burned several times 60k of wood doing quests just to obtain a few different runics... (depending on the RNG god) again, who would genuinely would come and not script the system if they can, as it is a true PITA to repeat again and again the same quest for the small % of a reward?
  4. Based on the previous points, there are people who obviously think it's more profitable to farm and sell the resources for those who do all of the above, this gold can be used to buy anything in the game as the inflation is not absolutely ridiculous yet.
Let me ask you all a question now... Is the real problem resource gathering? or the systems around resource gathering?

Most of the systems surrounding resource gathering are boring and not properly optimised, they involve repetitive actions that have absolutely no value for the chance of a "high end" reward, and let me also point something out... If we use Runics, we need to farm several hours for a chance to roll the dice again with the RNG god to obtain the item we are looking for with the mods we want... there is no absolute way of telling if you are getting closer or not to obtain the item you want as it is based in pure luck.
Exactly the same thing for the quests of Heartwood, pure luck.

The library systems I think they are "okish" in the sense that you know exactly the amount of ingots or items you need to obtain certain reward.

So, should we allow afk farming? In my opinion, we shouldn't and I can farm the hell out of this game with the scripts I have ( this is not a bragging attempt, simply I don't think I should have an advantage over someone who wants to play the game "fairly")

What we should do is to find different ways of improving the current systems so they are accessible to everyone, those who farm, those who don't and so on...

Good attempts to fix these are:
- The permanent implementation of Blackthorne Dungeon.
- The current events like KoTL, Doom in which your time spent gives you either tokens to get a bigger reward or more chances to get a reward.

I would still like to see a better way of obtaining runics, we need to remember the system works around random properties in items... this game looks more and more like DIablo 3 than anything else, and to a certain extent, it's the way we love UO because of its randomness but there has to be a limit to it to make it accessible to everyone.

This is still a MMORPG I am not trying to say things should be easy so those who don't script have a chance to get big items as well, as those who script could exploit the system and get many many overpowered items in the game, but we should find some balance...

I think the previous expansions introduced in the past like ML, Samurai Empire, they could do with a massive boost or revamp. I am talking about improving the encounters, currently almost any player with an equipped tamer / sampire can solo any of those... We should try to improve the experience and make those dungeons great again, increase the difficulty... so we can update the loot tables for those, this way people can choose from many options in the game what they want to fight.

I have several ideas on runics but I think this post is long enough and would like to hear the opinions from other people before I carry on... If you've read till this point, thank you very much.
I'd be interested in hearing your ideas on Runics.

Make a post in the Make A Suggestion thread.
 
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Dan

Dan

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Say we did make a vendor that sold, lets say ingots,

5gp for Iron, how much should the rest be sold for (accounting for the miner, making sure there is room for a profit). The point would be to offer resources (gold sink) at a slightly higher price, to those who need the resources.
 

DaBeanCounter

Journeyman
Community Supporter
Say we did make a vendor that sold, lets say ingots,

5gp for Iron, how much should the rest be sold for (accounting for the miner, making sure there is room for a profit). The point would be to offer resources (gold sink) at a slightly higher price, to those who need the resources.
My gut feeling is to price the coloured ores based on the chance that a given ore can be obtained (economics/scarcity). For instance, you will get lots more shadow than valorite. If this is in the scripts (which i assume it is), you can calculate a multiple to mark up the base ingot price (of 5gp...i hope this vendor will inflate the price like normal npc's do based on volume).

So, if you get 10x more iron than shadow over 10,000 mining attempts, shadow should be 10x more expensive (or 50g per ingot). I think this way we can all sort of understand why things are priced a certain way.
 
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Dan

Dan

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Well I want to make sure if Johhny Apples sells Valorite for 100gp an I got that we sell it on the NPC. We want the player, who likes that part of the game, to get rewarded too.
 

Omalley

Expert II
Lore Keeper
Revered Member
Community Supporter
Say we did make a vendor that sold, lets say ingots,

5gp for Iron, how much should the rest be sold for (accounting for the miner, making sure there is room for a profit). The point would be to offer resources (gold sink) at a slightly higher price, to those who need the resources.
Why not just set it back to the way it used to be, RNG is not fun, once a spot give Dull Copper, it always gives dull copper.. This is much less painful when it comes to gathering, and make it longer for that area to re-supply.. This was the best system, you could mine WHAT YOU WANTED, and not get a little of everything, which, never amounts to anything unless you AFK macro... If it was old school gathering, I would be gathering my own shit.. but now the RNG is just plain stupid
 

Omalley

Expert II
Lore Keeper
Revered Member
Community Supporter
This hasnt been an issue for years. Now that Players from the EU, Italy, and Russia are here bitching and whining about it, there "needs to be a discussion"? Fuck them. It shouldn't happen. End of question. It's a rule and IMO shouldn't be changed. No AFK gathering!

EU, Italy & Russian players, please ignore this idiot.. not all Americans/Westerners think this way.
 
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